The bad guy dying sacrificing themselves as the ultimate redemption has been done so many times I want the bad guy to have their final change of heart when the hero sacrifices themselves for them


Yeah, but the death redemption avoids them needing to actually be redeemed and face up to what they’ve done. Makes a neat bow with no effort necessary.


Then they can make him try to earn it afterwards. Give people a reason to stay invested. I'd have loved to see that.


Yeah, Zuko did it.


But that was a well written story.


That's rough, buddy


Hello, Zuko here!


Prince Zuko! You are a bold one.


I was trained in your fire-bending arts... By MASTER ROKU!




Zuko personally killed much less people, and was not in charge of or directly leading the people who killed many, many of the protagonists' friends or family.


Zuko had a redemption arc. Kylo was a conflicted villain. Both are fine, but different. That's why when Kylo gets an abrupt redemption he dies, he hasn't earned staying alive.


Because he didn’t anyone.


Zuko never killed a bunch of innocent people.


Zuko didn't killed millions and didn't helped create a weapon that killed trillions


JJ was so afraid of having Kylo actually think about all the horrible things he has done that he brought back Palpatine, so if anyone thinks Kylo is a bad person, someone can just say “it was Palpatine the whole tiem!!!” I see it as one of the more subtle F U’s to Rian Johnson, as in TLJ, Kylo chooses himself to go to the dark side, to attack the rebel base, to try and kill Luke and even attack Rey. It was supposed to show how far to the dark side Kylo has gone, showing that he was making his own decisions now. But JJ said “no, he was still being manipulated by Ol’ Palpy, hes not REALLY evil”. That way, he can have his redemption. I still cant believe disney thought having 3 different directors was a good idea...


Colin Trevarrows script was far from perfect but at least it felt like it actually continued on from TLJ instead of trying to retcon it


A female character sacrificing herself for the development of a male character has been done so many times as well. Either way, there would've been a played out trope.


True! A real compromise would've been them both living imo. Or perhaps even both of them dying and Finn taking on the task of rebuilding the Jedi with his new found force sensitivity and force ghosts to guide him.


I've always wanted this trilogy to end with Rey and Ben both leaving their pasts behind to go and build something new, something which belongs to neither the light nor the dark.


I thought after TLJ that was the idea they were planting with the whole island being both a light and dark side focal point. Especially with the questions it raised about the importance of Jedi, sith and the force in the galaxy like KOTOR 2 did amazingly. But At the same time it’s important to remember Star Wars is also a popcorn flick where good guys win in the end because it’s a movie and that’s what happens in movies.


That is what TLJ was setting up. Then JJ Abrams came back, took a look around, and said "The fuq?"


Ya pretty abundantly clear Rian Johnson being himself wanted to go gray and break type. Disney got scared by the backlash and went to the ultimate do the tropes but make it look good guy in JJ


There’s two great Star Wars movies between all the footage and plot points of tlj and ros but it was broken up in the wrong spot and Disney was def not gonna make it 4 movies. Like kill snoke at the end of act 1 without Rey there. Emperor’s broadcast goes out. Rey deals with losing Luke after his ghosting and goes back to resistance. Build up the Hux mole thing a bit while Kylo quickly takes over and starts hunting for the not-sith-holocron. End tlj at Endor and leia passing. Shits still way up in the air of is Kylo good or bad, is Rey good or bad, we got frank imitating his big plan we got the first order strikes back where good guys are still on their last limbs I liked all the sequels but RoS had the opposite issue of the hobbit 2/3 which should have been 1 movie


I still think they shouldve never brought Palestine back and the third one could've been all about Rey and Kylo it was the best part of pretty much all the movies. No need to draw focus away with palps. But agreed if you gonna introduce palps we need a kot more time


The way they portrayed the sith spirits was worth bringing him back on its own. If they had spent more time at the Death Star ruins they may have been able to work out how he survived or something. Even if it’s just him using the force the same way leia did when the bridge blew up in tlj just for shits and gigs Also not have Rey Be his grand daughter just have her be created by palps usinfthe force same way he did for anakin. Like it worked out pretty well the first time. Why not give it another go?


TLJ was aswell setting Kylo Ren to be the main villain of Episode 9 Good luck having him as the main villain, redeeming him, have him end alive and have him build a Grey Jedi Academy or something like that.


just when I thought I was over it... why J.J., why. There was so much potential


The sequels should have focused on Fin not Rey. Fin was a child slave who rebelled against his master's because it was right. Rey was a magic person that could do no wrong.


Honestly they did John so damn dirty. Finn *always* had the more interesting backstory of the two AND he had the turmoil of coming to terms with betraying what was essentially his “family.” You’d have the dichotomy of Finn who was raised evil and yet was good, versus Ren who was raised good and yet was evil. Finn would understand being manipulated by authority figures. He’d understand the cost of war. He'd know that some of the bad guys are good guys with no choice. He’d know that sometimes people are just cruel and irredeemable too. He’d just all around make a more empathetic lead. You could also combine his and Rey’s characters easily. Make his force powers manifest ina believable way by implying that he repressed them consciously or subconsciously as he was surrounded by anti-Jedi folks, almost a la Atton Rand in KOTOR2. Maybe he deserted because someone saw him accidentally use the force when he was panicked and he’s afraid of being killed or made into a sith. He might initially be wary of Luke because the only force users he’s known have been psychopaths! Tons of possibilities! As much as I enjoy Daisy Ridley, I just think Rey was not a necessary narrative addition. We didn’t need the mystery of her parentage. We didn’t need the romance. We didn’t need random force brilliance. We just needed a character with a believable motivation.


But at least we got sand


You mean the same Finn that cheered as he killed his fellow slave children turned soldiers?


Yep, so much character potential and that's what they've gone with.


I'm glad it focused on the link between Kylo and Rey, but Finn really should have had something to cap off his arc in TROS. He should have been the one to rally the troops against the Final Order.


He was criminally sidelined in the last movie so that fangirls could see the hot jedis kiss


Fangirls might've liked the hot pilots kissing more


I’m a straight dude and I still wanted to see Finn and Poe kiss, but Disney is too scared to have *actual* LGBTQA+ representation.


I like my Ben and Rey kiss. It took all of 3 seconds. No reason we couldn't have both. And yeah Finn and Poe should have kissed too.


That second one is basically Rogue One, if you switch “Finn” with “Leia” and Jedi” with “Rebellion”.


There is literally a name for the trope because it’s been done so much, it’s called fridging.


Rey is kind of unique though, when I think of a female character sacrificing themselves for a male it's usually a character who isn't as powerful as the "main character" like a Giving Tree scenario. Rey IS the main character so to me at least it's less Hinata & Naruto situation if that makes sense. Both living would've been cool too.


Not important whether they are male or female


I want to agree, but consistent portrayal is a factor. Constantly showing women as expendable or men as dangerous can lead to cultural assumptions that aren't healthy.


In what fucking universe have women been the ones that have ever been portrayed as disposable?


Probably a fantasy universe.


Women are the ones portraed as disposable?


This is a good question. This is not a debate on which gender is more or less disposable though, but how disposability is used in media. For instance, in a movie about soldiers, it would have hundreds of men constantly dying off. Thus the assumption might be that this hypothetical movie shows men are disposable. But the counter argument here is even when those men die off there deaths further the story of other men. Those men who survive are not show as disposable, but important. Thus, we have the question: Who is more likely to be shown benefiting from disposable characters? How many stories have people dying for a man's development? A lot. How many stories have people dying for a women? A few. Therefore, even though both men and women can be shown as disposable, male characters are more likely to benefit and thus be shown as more important.


I don't think the idea of a man sacrificing himself for a woman is as rare as your post makes it out to be.


A New Hope literally opens with dozens of men sacrificing themselves for Leia.


>A female character sacrificing herself for the development of a male character has been done so many times as well. the fuck, nothing comes to mind I somehow missed all them women leads dying or are we talking like barely even side character just sidenote - *his mother sacrificed herself to protect him blabla...*


You misunderstand, we're speaking about general women in media, not just leads in Star Wars. Examples can be seen everywhere, but the most recent you might know is Avengers Endgame (Gamora and Black Widow's death). Still, I believe media is improving its usage of characters and not just making them disposable. For more examples here are some sources: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DisposableWoman https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StuffedIntoTheFridge


If you're going to post that at least post one about men too. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MenAreTheExpendableGender


Also the "what's your name?" Question might have greater effect by him saying "Ben solo"


Wow. I didn't even think of that


Your comment brought more emotion out of me than the actual line in the movie...


He had to die, I know people don't like Rey but Kylo was a big factor in the deaths of literally trillions through the first order and starkiller base, and was a very evil person for a long time, him sacrificing himself makes perfect sense for his redemption, and if he doesn't pay for his crimes then he will never be redeemed. Like if Vader lived at the end of episode 6 everyone would be like "okay awesome, thanks for killing the emperor, but... You're really bad and nobody is gonna forgive you"


Yeah but if Kylo had lived, it literally would have been The Rise of Skywalker


Then they should have called it something else. Kylo was garbage. He needed to die. He did one good thing for one person and that's it. He didn't deserve redemption. He was offered it three times and got so many people killed doing everything to save him. But no one person is worth that much sacrifice. The only adult way this story could have gone was Kylo realizing too late that his rage, pride, and arrogance cost him everything and the rest of the characters growing past these BS legacies and shaping their own futures. This is the reality of Kylo. People aren't thinking clearly about the ugly implications of his story in context. Rey isn't a tool for Kylo's salvation. Kylo NEVER DESERVED SALVATION. Rey is her own character a hero, fighting for her friends and loved ones. Kylo is not the hero, he's the villain and he earned that spot.


Also they made a big deal about this Dyad. Then it's around for 15 minutes. The end. Woulda been nice to have it be a thing. Also... Exploring love stories is so interesting. Movies and TV have slowly gotten away from the ending of a story being when the two kids get together... Weve started exploring what comes after that, what a lasting, non doomed relationship looks like. I wish we had gotten a chance for Star Wars to do it too. Anakin and padme clearly doomed. Han and Leia ends in space divorce (although seeing that story and progression would be interesting too.) I wanted one of these dang things to last for a second.


Have you ever seen megamind?


Yes, and I love it When I first saw the movie I thought it was going a different way though, and I kinda wanna see a version of Megamind that goes like this: everything up until the point he fires the super power gun is the same, but once it gets shot into the pipes instead of going out to hit Hal it goes around through the pipes and shoots back out and hits megamind. The city is then faced with some new danger and Megamind finds himself having to use his new powers to save the day. Overall I like the way it turned out more, but mine would be cool too IMO A similar story that I really like is a team from Marvel comics called *The Thunderbolts* that I think they may be building towards in the MCU. In the comics, the supervillain Baron Zemo gathers a team of supervillains to pose as superheroes in a scheme to gain the public's trust as part of an evil plot. However, when the Avengers, the X-Men, and the Fantastic Four are all slaughtered by the supervillain *Onslaught*, the Thunderbolts realize that they're the only "heroes" that the Earth has left and they step up to actually save the day and be real heroes


That would have been hella cool. If not Rey, Leia could have done it.


Pitch Black




Ben Solo was so awesome, way better than Kylo, way more endearing. I too wanted more of that.


You do not speak for me. His arc went exactly as it should have. He was literally Vader from Episode 6.


Honestly what is the harm in redditors just saying "me" instead of going tribal like "literally every X fan". It mildly annoys me.


They want to feel like they’re not alone in their hate. It somehow makes them cope better with something they didn’t like to be part of a group instead of one lone person. Which I get... but they’re wrong.


Reddit psychology 101 Saying "literally everyone" pushes people who disagree to share their disagreement and people who agree to debate them, thus increasing the post traffic and resulting in juicy karma.


Social media in a nutshell. Literally.


Literally. Every. Social. Media. Post. Ever.


We're all just unpaid instagram models. Like, the radio version.


I was going to downvote you for making generalizations about the SW fanbase but damn, i respect your hustle.


Damnit, we’ve been tricked, we’ve been played, and quite possibly bamboozled.


Generally results in downvotes


Exactly! So sick of posters trying to speak for me. Literally every redditor thinks that would be more appropriate to just speak for oneself.


The only bad thing was the kiss. Other than that I think the right characters died


The one thing I wanted was for Finn to nut up and tell Rey what he never told her. Cause for awhile I was sure we’re get those two together by the end. But in the end I’m okay with that, Finn’s character was more about doing what was right than trying to find a woman.


He was only going to tell her that he's force sensitive. Wouldn't have changed much


Then she'd have had to kill him if she decided to go Dark Side.


He never even tells her and supposedly he was going to say he is force sensitive. Instead he just screams rey for 50% of his lines.


It’s actually insane how badly they wasted such an interesting character. I really do enjoy the sequels but this is the one thing I flat out can’t defend. Diving into a storm trooper going rogue is such an interesting concept and we ended up learning nothing about it. It’s not even like it has to be the center of the story, just like give it it’s time of day lol. In fact, to make matters worse, they introduced more defectors and basically reduce Finn to a standard soldier who just happens to know important people, which is probably why they felt obligated to shoehorn in that he’s force sensitive. I honestly have to assume he had bad toy sales or something and executives demanded he get reduced to a more minor character after TFA. That, or they realized they bit off more than they can chew with the Luke/Ben background and redemption arc and realized someone had to lose screen time to make the more important stuff make sense.


Rey! We're about to die in this quick sand! I have to tell you I'm force sensitive!


"He was literally Vader from Episode 6" is exactly my problem with it. It's horribly unimaginative.


It's crazy to me that Abrams got away with copying both A New Hope AND Return of the Jedi. I get that original ideas are hard, but they have a lot of money to pay someone to come up with them lol.


This is why I liked TLJ more than TFA and TROS, it tried to do something different. I think if Rian did all 3 sequels they could have been more fun.


I think it was trashy too - but there's a nice hidden story arc. Ren spent all his time in EP VII trying to be Vader. In the end he succeeds, but by sacrificing himself for the light in the same way, not by achieving Sith Lord status like he dreamed.




My counterpoint: he’s wanted to be Vader this whole time. He got to be that, redemption and all.


I don't understand how people like that. It was almost the same exact trilogy


It was the end of his character arc. All he wanted to be this whole time was his Grandfather. He got that, redemption and all.


Just because they planned for his character to be a rip off from the beginning doesn’t make it an original or good character


He could've redeemed himself without dying or ended his character arc by realizing he was idolizing the wrong form of his grandfather


You know, I think he did realize at the end he was idolizing the wrong form of his grandfather. That was why he followed Rey, why he killed the Knights of Ren, and fake to Rey’s defense against the emperor. Throwing away his lightsaber was the end of Kylo Ren, just as Vader coming to the defense of his son was the rebirth of Anakin Skywalker.


Did you check out the comics? It makes me mad that they're now bringing out CANON comics that kinda rewrite a lot of the stuff that we are meant to believe from the movies. Basically negating a lot of the supposedly bad stuff he's meant to have done when he left Lukes jedi academy. But hey he died though so.... Okay.


I’m not going to touch the comics, honestly. I don’t know why exactly but I don’t have any interest in them.


It's already annoying as hell with the, "Actually, if you read the comics" stuff as if I didn't watch three movies of Kylo being the worst piece of shit and then literally forgiving himself for one single crime.


Yeah, Kylo Ren was an awful person.


Would’ve been fine if both died tbh


Exactly. Which means the arc has already been done. They should’ve changed it, and let him live on as a Jedi to fix his mistakes, and live a redeemed life instead of die a redeemed death. We got three movies and a tv show about Anakin before he was Vader. We understand why he had to die. Kylo was young. He could’ve lived.


He would have had to either go live on a secluded planet by himself or face trial as a mass murderer and war criminal. Hard to redeem yourself as a Jedi with those limitations


can we have both?


Kinda bad tho to just reuse Vader’s entire arc for the ST that already copied so much from the OT tho


That just makes me hate it more. Fuck Disney and their self plagiarism.


I'm fine with her surviving.


I’m fine with her surviving too but I’d be a tad more fine with be surviving


Same. I liked the ending.


Yeah I liked everything but “Rey skywalker” I know it’s to carry on the legacy and all that but it just doesn’t sound right to me


I liked it, but as someone who was adopted I know I'm biased to like stories where the orphan chooses her family.


Ya know I didn't make this connection but maybe having six adopted siblings is why it didn't bother me like it did some people


I'd like to think she starts a halfway house for force users where they can become "Skywalkers" too.


Rey Organa would have been way cooler. It would have honored Carrie and Leia as her master.


Should have said "Just Rey" but god forbid anyone in Star Wars not have some stupid legacy


Let the past die


Kill it If you have to


But why the kiss? I never got romance vibes, more like good friends vibes!?


It's weird, because they kiss and then Rey leaves and doesn't seem to care at all that he is dead.


Yes so am I. She’s the protagonist after all.


Mostly cause I have a huge crush on her


I would have been more than fine with both surviving as the first married jedi of this new age. Fuck that would have been way cooler than what we got.


Not this star wars fan. You don't get to slaughter your father and then just get to have basically consequence free redemption. Yeah, he was saved at the end, but him living, no matter how much I like his character, doesn't work for me.


TLJ should have ended with Kylos hesitation on killing his mother rather than starting with it. And she should have actually died when his wingmen did it for him. Then you could have ended with guilt and made his redemption in the last movie believable. As it is he's full rampage at the end of the second movie then at the end of the third has a final turn of heart because she actually dies on another planet ? Like no that doesn't work.


Him having to live with the atrocities he has committed and having to come to terms with the fact that both he himself and the galaxy hate him for it would actually be the harsher punishment compared to the heroic sacrifice and weird force heal thing we actually got. But that would also require more effort to properly write and execute than the sequels ever showed...


It could've worked before he destroyed like, a dozen planets. I feel like when you go from homicidal to genocidal, full redemption becomes impossible.


Might I introduce you to darth Vader, who slaughtered a bunch of younglings, sand people, other jedi, along with many others, and had a consequence free redemption when he threw papa palpatine down a shaft on Death Star II.


And then he died.


But he then he lived, as a force ghost, in his younger body


That's not living. He's dead.


From a certain point of view


From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!


Then you are lost!


Yoda says in episode 3 that Qui Gon learned the secret to IMMORTALITY. So the force ghosts are immortal beings.


>in his younger body I mean, only in the edited versions.


Han shot first


I mean he lived a pretty long life conquering and then lived as a space ghost, not really a punishment.


And then he died And no one complained and said that Luke should have died instead of Vader


He paid his price.


But at least Vader actually killed the emperor. All Ben did was feel up Rey's dead corpse then get a cheeky snog from her.


Yeah he was a very bad man, I don't understand how anyone can get on board with Kylo living. Him feeling guilty about it and changing his ways doesn't change the fact that he is a mass murdering war criminal.


Rey's cool, y'all drool.




Guess I'm not a Star Wars fan because I liked her living and Kylo dying.




What’s next for the silent majority? Not participating in protests? Not joining any countercultures? Being ignored by the national media?


Oh look. Another Star Wars meme ridiculing the sequels. How original. Let's see... "Rey bad"... yep, checks out See y'all in 10 years when I'm allowed to like the sequels


I dont want Rey to die but Kylo definetely should have lived, he is the last descendent of Skywalker bloodline afterall and the movie is called the rise of skywalker


Plus, it is the SKYWALKER Saga. We’ve been following the family for decades, and now they’re dead. Ben should have lived to become a wandering hero in atonement. Would have been a perfect bookend


I wouldn’t say “hero”. People knew who he were and would probably have killed him for what he had done. So maybe either wandering around systems or go into exile and find out more about force.


I just wanted them to both live tbh. I wish we'd get at least one villain whose atonement goes beyond just dying for the betterment of someone.


The Sequels were Rey Story story also I Liked Finn more than any of them


LiTtErAlLy eVeRy sTaR wArS fAn


Is it too much to ask to see him atone for his mistakes


Right. As Kylo Ren, dying is a punishment because Klylo Ren would have died pissed off that he failed. As Ben, dying isn't a punishment, it's a relief from the guilt hed have to feel if he lived. Unfortunately it's the same person, but it would have been interesting to see both aspects of the character get what it deserved.




Why not both?


"If I should return in a spin off...think better of me" "That shall depend on the manner of its content"


What if... I want both to live.


No, it was a good ending. It really showed how far Ben had come by willing to give his life to save Rey, and I think he partially realized most people wouldn’t ever forgive him for being Kylo, especially if both his parents and rey were dead. It makes much more sense for Ben to die


This my take too. Also, it was clear Rey WAS dead for that moment. Who else in the Galaxy would care for him at that moment? Who would even forgive him? Additionally did he care about anyone else at that point? I don't think Ben saw a point to living if Rey wasn't alive. So.. I agree it ended the way it probably should have.


I actually wish they’d joined forces after killing Snoke


Damm, I wish this had a spoiler tag...


Probably gonna get a lot of hate for this but I would have preferred both of them to live.


Is it too much to ask for both ?


>‘Do you wish then,’ said Faramir, ‘that our places had been exchanged?’ >‘Yes, I wish that indeed,’ said Denethor. ‘For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard’s pupil. He would have remembered his father’s need, and would not have squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift.’


Name definitely fits.


I wish she would of joined Kylo in 8 would of been much cooler.


I know my opinion is unpopular, but I was disappointed there was a redemption at all. There should either have been no redemption at all, or he should have lived. What they did was just a repeat of Darth Vader, which was the nail in the coffin of a repeat of the entire OT.


There should have been no Palpatine and Kylo should have gone down swinging.


It's not as simple as that. Kylo Ren's death sucked, but I dont think the trilogy would have been well served by having the main character die at the end for no reason. The real fault lies with the screenplay for ending up in a position where one of them has to die for unsatisfying reasons


Nah. It went down how it shoulda.


I guess I’m not a real fan because I liked the main character because she was charming and skilled


Kylo lives, goes through a short and very public war crimes tribunal, is executed.


That would have been beautiful. Maybe even have Leia there for him in the end so he's not alone. And then he dies.


I kinda wished they had gone with the Duel of the Fates approach instead, but i'm fine with the ending as it is, i don't see why Kylo should've survived.


What would have been the duel of fates approach?


I freaking love Rey, so no. Not every SW fan.




I disagree. Yes, I’d like to see more Kylo, but story-wise, it wouldn’t be good.


Reylo fans: Is it too much to ask for both?


TIL i am not a star wars fan. Go figure.


'''literally every star wars fan'''


>literally every Star Wars fan This is only the third time I've heard of this, I highly doubt literally everyone wanted this.


as much as I like Daisy Ridley... yes. I wish that, too. What would have been even better is if they had just let Ben live and given us a cheesy happily ever after. It is 2020 we could use some up-lifting stories, couldn't we.


Yes I like cheesy endings after so many realistic and dark endings like Endgame and joker.


honestly. Star wars is Star Wars




So it’s not just me?


Palpatine kind of won. The Skywalker line is dead and his kin survived. What’s in a name?


I love Rey and I’m not saying I wish she had died and Ben had lived... but I would be happier with that tbh. I just love Ben so much tho so that’s on me.


The only solace I have is that Anakin promised in episode II that he would learn to stop people from dying and Ben, did ultimately, finished what he started.


Kylo Ren was a miles better of a character than any of the other Sequel characters


Ideally, both should have died...really anything to spare me of that “I’m Rey....Skywalker” line.


You...do realize Denethor is supposed to be the asshole here?


She’s my favorite character so I’m good but thanks ig


Reys mullet is fully sick brah


Both should have died